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Thread Contributor: forever_incelIt’s starting boyos...
#41
(06-04-2018, 05:38 AM)Towie Wrote: The less confident, less pretty girls are just completely ignored by the incel contingent, but don't feel as entitled to the 2 % most handsome guys, and don't usually form hate groups on the internet.
Tumblr feminism?

(06-04-2018, 05:38 AM)Towie Wrote: Isn't the core of the answer, both for men and for women, that you need to develop some self worth that is not tied to your looks , not tied to your academic achievements, and not necessarily tied to social status? Just by developing some skills and some interests that will sustain you and turn you into a person that you would like to associate with? 
I feel like that already is society's message - and it's not working. If a guy says "I can't get a girlfriend" what's the most common advice? Be yourself, get a hobby, have passions! Women will find you! And maybe get a good job too!

Which is honestly bullshit. You do hobbies for your own sake. Hobbies rarely lead to dates, unless your hobby happens to be cycling or maybe crossfit.

Our own Goku is living proof of this. His hobby is boxing, and he's been doing it for years. He's probably good enough to have amateur fights at this point. He's average in the face, with a well above average body. If you could pick a hobby where you don't meet women - but should make you more attractive to women, what's going to top boxing? He could probably beat every person on this forum in a fight.
On top of it, he has a good IT job. So you have an above average looking fighter with a good income. Yet, he's completely incel, because he's hyper anti-social.

What I don't think is being addressed is that there are two problems going on with incels at the same time. They mostly want at least moderately attractive women(6/10+). While themselves being about 4/10 on average. So they do need to make themselves better looking. Or aim lower.

But that still leaves the social skills gap. Really, most incels are INTJ types, who are mildly autistic. They need detailed instructions to learn things. Including how to act normal. I don't feel like anyone has designed a program for incels to follow to learn to be semi-normal members of society. The vast majority of books about social skills basically boils down to "Listen more! Be interested in what the other person says!" and that's not really enough. For a normal person maybe. But not someone who's never really had friends and may literally go for days without talking to a single human being - and lives like this for years. No one has really even tried to address this as far as I can see.

I can give socially isolated incels basic tips. Like put yourself in groups where you see the same people for a while. Even people with poor social skills are often accepted into a group if they're there long enough. They're just never going to be good with strangers. But that only fixes the proximity problem. I've seen videos of incels. They're facially expressionless. They rarely smile. They're often plagued with monotone voices. They have weird eye contact. They have strange posture. They speak in a weird way. I don't even know how to fix those things. They're immediately apparent to me - and to everyone else. But I don't really know how to offer advice on correcting them.

TransistorBass-303 Wrote:I need Fat Acceptance because the alternative is self improvement.

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#42
I admit that hobbies are not necessarily a quick fix to get dates. But not having hobbies that involve at least some socializing is a great way to become (more) depressed and develop a weird shut in personality. I think they are a necessary, but not sufficient prerequisite for relationships. Extra points if they force you into contact with people you wouldn't normally hang out with. You get better with people through sheer force of repetition.


Looks - absolutely spot on. The theory that no women can be incels was obviously created by a group of people to whom sub-6 (if we accept there is an objective scale, which there isn't, really) girls are completely invisible. Women get sex easier, but the less pretty ones usually struggle to get a guy for a LTR, particularly in their late teens and twenties. 
I think pop culture and porn are partially to blame for the high standards. The shlubby guy with the borderline porn star wife (think King of Queens) is a bit of a trope. As are all the Seth Rogen movies where the loser dude gets the hot girl through sheer persistency. 

Socialising -I work in IT myself (INFP ..), I'm pretty familiar with less than NT people. Even all-nerd friend groups (roleplaying games, games tournaments etc) do have a positive impact because they do enforce a minimum of mental and physical hygiene. Gym classes help to fix your posture and improve muscle memory. Toastmasters was great as well because you get a lot of direct feedback on  your voice, gestures, choice of words.   (My partner thinks that some of the issues with movement are related to mild dyspraxia. He literally had to be taught how to walk like an NT person as a kid.)

But ultimately you have to have the discipline to push past your initial resistance to change. The naturally good looking and confident people really have a huge leg up, but you have to have some faith that not being one of them is not a death sentence and an irredeemable flaw. I suppose you'd have to ween the incels off the internet first so they're forced to interact with normies occasionally. It seems like an air tight bubble.
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#43
(06-04-2018, 06:43 PM)Towie Wrote: The theory that no women can be incels was obviously created by a group of people to whom sub-6

Below average women get thousands of likes on dating websites and plenty of attention in real life, it would be disingenuous to assume that all of those guys who message them just want to pump and dump.
[Image: dmkNd83.png]

I wouldn't say it's impossible for a woman to be an incel though... if inceldom is really about not being desired romantically. It's just that the number of said women is significantly smaller. And there are definitely plenty of incels who accuse women of being hypergamous whores while having unrealistically high standards themselves, but I wouldn't say it's an "unifying factor" of all self-described incels.


(06-04-2018, 06:43 PM)Towie Wrote: if we accept there is an objective scale, which there isn't, really


You could just sort/rank people by the number of people who find them attractive, that scale wouldn't really depend on the taste of a specific individual. 

(06-04-2018, 06:43 PM)Towie Wrote: I think pop culture and porn are partially to blame for the high standards. The shlubby guy with the borderline porn star wife (think King of Queens) is a bit of a trope. As are all the Seth Rogen movies where the loser dude gets the hot girl through sheer persistency. 

Honestly, I get annoyed every time when someone mentions this in the context of "male entitlement". The female "commoner to royalty" trope seems to be a lot more widespread and reinforced from a much earlier age.
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#44
I'm not sure if the attention translates to actual romantic prospects for the lower rated girls, and whether it is universally true IRL. I suppose some of the effect is due to men being expected to make the first move, and them hedging their bets by interacting with a lot of girls. It's also more socially accepted to compliment a woman on her looks. Some men are weirded out if you as much as compliment their shirt or their new glasses.


I agree the princess trope is bullshit and needs to die. The entire idea that women should be passive and expect to rise to royalty by sitting on their arses and waiting for a prince is a really damaging story to put into girls' heads. (See also r/nicegirls and wide sections of deviant art.) It s a brain virus that creates a constant need for external validation which is not sustainable even if you are a 10 in your twenties. It's not actually good for women.
I don't think that the Seth Rogen stuff is less widespread though. Female beauty standards are pretty inescapable and reinforced with every toy, in every advertisement, every Disney movie. Doughy flat chested snaggletoothed women are non existent in popular culture.
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#45
I also think bigger women struggle to get a guy in part because guys do have to go after them, and it's just not a big priority. Does anyone really want a fat woman? No, not really.

It's not like a 300lb man is as attracted to a 250lb woman as a 170lb man is to a 120lb woman. It's just not like that. The 300lb guy may have built up a higher tolerance for the 250lb woman - but he still doesn't really want her.

He is, at best, looking for companionship. And there's just far less drive to go find a friend, than there is to go find a lover.

The other sucky part is that you lose the attraction stuff, but gain nothing in return. Getting married comes with a lot of downsides. Most men end up losing a lot of control over their lives. So they give up freedom, and often a fair amount of financial resources. When this exchange involves an attractive woman, he can probably better justify it. But when she's about as hot as he is and he's a mess... that certainly feels like a worse and worse deal.

I got fat for about a year and half, and it wasn't pretty. I'm about 90% sure I'd go MGTOW as a fat guy.

TransistorBass-303 Wrote:I need Fat Acceptance because the alternative is self improvement.

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#46
Also, porn




Porn gets rid of the drive to go out  improve yourself and find yourself a real GF 

It's even worse when you're a kind of guy who knows that even with all the effort in the world, you probably will only attract an under average woman at best. Much easier to just sit at home and imagine you're fucking an 8/10 Stacy. This will become even more pronounced when VR becomes mainstream
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#47
(06-04-2018, 07:49 PM)Towie Wrote: I'm not sure if the attention translates to actual romantic prospects for the lower rated girls

Let's say 10% of the messages women receive are "actual romantic prospects", 50% for a guy. That'd still be 10% of several hundred messages/month vs. 50% of 1 message/month
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#48
(06-04-2018, 10:46 PM)Hāfucel Wrote: Much easier to just sit at home and imagine you're fucking an 8/10 Stacy. This will become even more pronounced when VR becomes mainstream
Though I'm skeptical porn has much to do with it today - I completely agree with the VR thing.

http://looksmax.net/Thread-Forever-Alone...es-in-2018

Now that's Dead or Alive which is just a "hot girls playing volley ball" game. But take that, and make it porn? I've never been super into porn, but that has very, very high appeal to me. 

I have, in my lowest moments dated a couple of 4/10s. Which has always been my absolute floor for what I'm even slightly attracted to(if I focus only on those things and ignore everything else).

If the above becomes the reality of porn... I'd imagine my floor probably rises to a 5.5/10 minimum.

TransistorBass-303 Wrote:I need Fat Acceptance because the alternative is self improvement.

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#49
(06-04-2018, 10:55 PM)Labrot Wrote: Let's say 10% of the messages women receive are "actual romantic prospects", 50% for a guy. That'd still be 10% of several hundred messages/month vs. 50% of 1 message/month

Yes but the 10% of "actual romantic prospects" aren't from the top 20% of men that they actually want, since the top 20% know they can fuck around with women disillusioned into thinking they have a chance of locking Chad down into a LTR 

The 10% of "actual romantic prospects" come from average or below average men, and women are much more biologically inclined than men are to completely ignore looksmatched individuals for a chance at a higher catch


We have two problems, uncontrolled female hypergamy and men who just don't give a fuck anymore and would rather watch porn than be burned by RL
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#50
(06-04-2018, 11:03 AM)Vitriol Wrote: Be nice.

@Towie has provided invaluable perspectives as one of the few female members left on this forum. Girls are an endangered species here and we must do everything to protect them. Hi Mommy @Evelyn please choke me

Grimes

i thought i was your mommy

[Image: N2tmlxa.jpg]
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#51
@Vitriol
@Pencil_Neck_Chad 

i luv u guys tbh

[Image: N2tmlxa.jpg]
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#52
(06-05-2018, 01:03 AM)forever_incel Wrote: @Vitriol
@Pencil_Neck_Chad 

i luv u guys tbh


You filthy bisexual

I lub u too <3

PS Let me motorboat your gynoblobs

Lebensmüde
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#53
(06-05-2018, 01:49 AM)Pencil_Neck_Chad Wrote: You filthy bisexual

I lub u too <3

PS Let me motorboat your gynoblobs

[Image: 200w.webp]

[Image: N2tmlxa.jpg]
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#54
[Image: db2.gif]

Just cage at the convo @Towie and @TheGreatCornholio are having

Goku is incel becuase he is facially unattractive

@Towie even pig woman got men wanting to fuck her, don't give me shit about females being incel it is impossible

You can go to the moon, invent a cure to every known disease and eliminate global poverty and still be regarded as creep by roasties.



You can be villainous murderer, baby killer and drug lord and still be considered "just perfext x0x0x".



What you accomplish means nothing. Sub 6 PSL = death


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#55
Towie, thegreatcornholio and gwyn are the same person

Posting from one IP.

Just lol at this mental asylum.

"Your genes are pretty fucked up I'll tell you that," a poster with an anime avatar told the teen point blank."
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#56
Ya idk that having a wife is an automatic financial negative. I provide more than 50 % of the money we share. If you factor in kids, both people in the relationship lose resources, time and autonomy, not just the guy. It's the trade off you make if you want kids. Which you negotiate with your partner, she doesn't just swoop in and take your shit, unless you date terrible people.
Also wouldn't trade a guy to go travelling with, go out with, talk to for a more attractive VR. 

But what do I know, I'm @Gwyn in a wig.
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#57
(06-05-2018, 05:13 AM)Towie Wrote: she doesn't just swoop in and take your shit
No, of course not. Which is why I said he's less likely to choose to date her. It's a choice. One that comes with a lot of extra work and financial sacrifice for him. None of which is offset by her attractiveness. He just has to want to spend more money and time on all of those things. Which many men do not. 

You work in IT. So you make more than your husband, which is uncommon. Most women earn less than their husband. But the income gap isn't even the biggest problem. It's how women direct finances in a relationship.

It's very much about priorities. Most priorities in marriage are primarily female priorities. We need a big house in a nice neighborhood - this is almost 100% women. I know plenty of older single/divorced men. They live in apartments, or at most opt for two bedroom houses or a condo. They don't, while single go out and buy something bigger or more expensive. Older single/divorced women(who no longer have children) will frequently opt to purchase 4+ bedroom homes, insist in living in gentrified neighborhoods where her rent/mortgage is still 1/3 of her income in her 50s and 60s. They're also about 10x as likely to buy beach front property when single.

It's a lot like house work. Tons of women expect to live in a spotless house. Virtually no man does. When each were single, they had very different cleaning habits. The man spent about 1 hour per month cleaning his place. The woman may well have spent 10 hours or more. When they married, should it be 50/50? 

So the difference here is that when single, the woman was already spending a lot of time and resources on things the man just doesn't care about. So when he jumps into a marriage, his burden in time and financial commitment to things he doesn't care about soars. Her commitment to things she cares about may also rise. But there's an important difference between them. She cares, and he doesn't.

There is a laundry list of examples like this. It's not that marriage necessarily causes men to spend a lot more on time and resources on things he doesn't care about. But his odds are very high. There are always guys like Kevin Fedderline who come out way ahead. But they're a distinct minority. There are also some men who are clean freaks, and do in fact want to lob 1/3 of his income at rent/mortgage. But they're also a minority(and from what I've seen are usually above average looking).

Men tend to have some degree of financial freedom when they're young and lose it when married. They will regain it after divorce once their kids are grown. The vast majority of women are never financially free. When she doesn't have kids, she just finds inventive ways to waste money. Like organic food, and holistic medicine. 

There are a minority of women who are conservative with money. Just as there is a minority of men who have similar priorities to most women. But it's not a good overlap. If you have 100 fat guys and 100 fat women, maybe there's overlap between 40 of them if perfectly matched. Which still leaves 60 in a mismatch.

TransistorBass-303 Wrote:I need Fat Acceptance because the alternative is self improvement.

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#58
That's your experience. Most of my female friends are lawyers, doctors, engineers, they are the people I went to university with who spent a lot of their early adulthood living in student housing and shared apartments. Not the standard midwestern housewife that wants to live in a palace out in the sticks. 

What irks me about this entire trope is that you present it entirely as a net loss on the part of men.
Point 1: a lot of the guys that complain the most bitterly about their useless ex wife choose to date down in an economical sense. They chose to be with a traditional woman that wants to be a housewife, wants kids, has not much interest in a career, because a part of them actually enjoys a feeling of superiority, enjoys feeling like 'the provider', wants to feel smarter and stronger. They may well have chosen a woman who invests a lot in her looks. How is it a surprise that she is just as financially dependent and likely to overspend if the marriage fails? 
My husband and I (and the people I know) went for more of an equal split - the men do more of the housework than the men in traditional marriages, and some decisions about where to move may be made to accommodate the wife's job rather than the husband's. That's a sacrifice too. There's always a cost, but there is a choice. It's not as if men are so bamboozled by the presence of a pair of boobs as to be unable to think it through. 
 
Point 2 - how about her  loss of freedom and her loss of earning potential? Chances are she's doing the guy's laundry, does all the cooking, ironing and some of the budgeting on top of a job for a good long while before she moves on to do most of the child minding. A lot of mothers don't even take the time to maintain friendships and hobbies.
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#59
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#60
(06-05-2018, 03:45 PM)Towie Wrote: who spent a lot of their early adulthood living in student housing and shared apartments
I covered this:

Quote:Older single/divorced women(who no longer have children) will frequently opt to purchase 4+ bedroom homes, insist in living in gentrified neighborhoods where her rent/mortgage is still 1/3 of her income in her 50s and 60s. 
I'm aware that women < 30 do this. But around age 30 almost every woman with the means determines she needs to live in a nice(see expensive) neighborhood. And it's not just the ones with kids. It's virtually all of them. Even the single women with no husband or kids, is usually dropping 25-35% of her income on rent by 30. Single 35 year old men rarely do this. Some do of course, but it's a minority of them. As I said, there is gap which leads to aggregate problems, even if not consistent problems with every couple.

There is a significantly higher portion of women who do this than men. Which is why it's an imbalance. For some men, it's not a big loss. They want to do those things too. And a few women don't want to do those things. But that still leaves a lot of couples(assuming most people end up with someone) mismatched.

Quote:Point 1: a lot of the guys that complain the most bitterly about their useless ex wife choose to date down in an economical sense.
Yes, because men don't much care about a woman's career/income. We may vaguely screen for class(like if I'm a Princeton graduate drawing 200k as a director of my family's charity, I'm unlikely to marry a cashier at Krogers). But we mostly don't care. If we did care, there would be a big problem, because most women don't work in very demanding jobs. You work in IT, what percent are women there? When I was doing IT audit, I think maybe 20% of the employees were female.

But you're also talking about failed relationships, and ultimately, people whine about a bunch of nonsense after things go south. That's not a big concern. But the financial obligation is a major negative for men. That's why they're apprehensive about entering an arrangement like that logically. It's not a good deal for them. A man with an erection is not very smart. But if he's thinking about marrying a fat girl, he doesn't have that problem. He's going in eyes wide open. 

Which is what leads to the difficulty of a heavy woman finding a husband. He needs to logically determine you two are a GREAT match. Logically determining that is much higher bar than falling in love with her because she's cute and fun.
(06-05-2018, 03:45 PM)Towie Wrote: Point 2 - how about her  loss of freedom and her loss of earning potential?
You were originally talking about the difficulty of heavy women finding a mate. So I covered that side. It is indeed a similar problem for women as men. The woman also has no sexual attraction to her potential mate, and so she's often not that inclined to date him either. She will indeed end up doing stuff she doesn't want to do. Though her list is shorter than his is. She'll also have to logically determine that dating him makes good sense.

Heavy people in general have to either work a lot harder to find a mate, or they have to make huge compromises. Usually ones involving extremely conflicting priorities. 

(06-05-2018, 03:45 PM)Towie Wrote: A lot of mothers don't even take the time to maintain friendships and hobbies.
This is something that describes single mothers and married mothers alike. Single fathers are rarely moving into the most expensive housing they can wing. And they certainly aren't angling to snag the wealthiest possible woman than can manage to help give them additional income for their kids. Women do exactly this. Which is why I'm saying that marriage ends up being a worse deal for men than for women. Women do an awful lot of this stuff with or without a man. Men rarely do these things without a wife.

TransistorBass-303 Wrote:I need Fat Acceptance because the alternative is self improvement.

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